Environmental Health and Safety Committee Minutes
August 1, 2002 7:30-9:00 PM
Location: Park West High School
Attending: David Ross (chairman);
Felice Perlman (parent member);
Dale Bernstein (PA co-president);
Judy Moore (PA co-president);
Howard Bader (consultant);
Tom Fusillo (consultant);
Linda Lam (PA vp);
Lori Pandolfo (interested parent);
Paul Edwards (interested parent);
Marianne Edwards (interested parent);
Rochelle Kalish (interested parent; SLT rep);
Kiki Dinos (interested parent);
Jonathan Jakobi (interested parent, SLT rep);
Jenna Orkin (interested parent);
John Healy (interested parent);
Paul Niglio (teacher)
This was a special meeting called earlier than the scheduled meeting. Minutes were not yet ready so discussion/approval was postponed until next meeting
HB reported on current status of cleanup. The ductwork had been cleaned down to the 6th floor before wipe tests were begun. Some of the ducts failed the 20 microgm/sq ft standard and were therefore re-cleaned 2 more times. Two out of 6 ducts on the 10th floor were in the 30's; two-three were non-detectable; the rest were low. SCA asked for standard of 40. JJ asked who approved raising the standard to 40. HB said that both he and TF agreed that 40 was acceptable. He noted that the levels had been discussed at an earlier HSC meeting and explained the nature of screening levels, i.e. that they were lower/tighter than clearance levels because they were used for random sampling. TF noted that he was also comfortable with the standard of 40. It was noted that all the unit ventilators had met the standard of 20.
LP asked what the previous problem had been with the cleaning that HB had observed. HB responded that initially he had not been comfortable with his visual inspection, although it turned out that the tested were pretty low. The ducts had been re-cleaned.
Testing
DR asked that the committee move to the testing issue. TF noted that we had agreed 3 weeks ago that we wanted tests as soon as possible. He reported that the BOE had agreed and told SCA. SCA thought that they would provide a package of data after each floor was done TF clarified that we wanted data as soon as available. After "several days of beating SCA on the head," they made an agreement to fax the results daily. DR noted that it had been "a tough process," and that it was not really clear what the problem was. JJ said that he was "mystified" that it took so long because he had called Klasfeld on Tuesday and got a call back on Wednesday saying that the results would be available. DB said that there would be a summary, i.e., TF would digest the data and put on the scorecard to post on the website; the raw data will be available in Stanley Teitel's office. TF said that, in the data summary, he would highlight any data about failed testing. LL mentioned that a few freshman parents had called her with questions. DR said that he hoped to have things posted ASAP. The first results were received 7/26/02. TF said that he had been in contact with Alex Lempert's office.
JJ asked who observed the testing. HB said that the testing hadn't yet coincided with his visits. TF reported that there would be testing early tomorrow and that that might be a good time to schedule a visit. PE noted that, although things sounded good, lead might not have been found in April if HB had not been present. HB said that the situation now was much different from April. PE said that things were not different: there had been a delay in reporting results and that HB had not been present at the testing. He said that there were a large number of parents who were not satisfied with the report.
HB said that, in April, ATC had not sent people with mechanical expertise and the system had been very dirty, which it was not now. HB feels "confident" about the cleanup process. PE: "there is a complete lack of confidence on the part of many of the parents." Split testing was raised. TF said that, when he spoke to Alex Lempert today, he had been informed that the wipes are now being sent to a second lab.
PE added that, in terms of accountability, nobody has yet seen written protocols for all the procedures. TF said that we had asked them to provide written documents regarding the protocols, and they had provided written descriptions, which he and HB had seen. PE said that, with no disrespect to TF or HB, the level of mistrust of the BOE was not going to be dispelled by this. He said that "if these things are not addressed, there will be serious problems in September."
FP asked PE what he meant. He replied that there are parents who are considering striking the school in September. JM asked PE what specific steps we needed to take and noted that he had expressed the wish for the two consultants to review the data. TF and HB said that they had reviewed what is available and were satisfied with what they had seen so far. PE said that he was disturbed that the protocols were not available. JM asked if the concerns were that the tests were not done. JO mentioned the concern about the timing of visits. JM agreed with the need for there to be unannounced visits and supervision of the testing.
PN asked HB and TF if they projected that the cleanup would be complete by the beginning of school. HB said that he believed that the actual environmental cleanup would be done by mid-August but that the reassembly after that was a big job, he was not certain about [the timing] of that. PN asked if HB thought that the auditorium would also be ready. HB said that he thinks so.. PE asked about the scope of work in the auditorium. DR deferred this no later in the agenda.
HB stated that he understood the concerns being voiced by some of the parents, but that "based on the product I'm seeing, I'm not seeing dirty spots,"--he felt comfortable. JJ asked about what HB sees when he visits. HB aid that, after cleaning, the units are wrapped; he makes his assessment on inspection of about 10% of the units. JJ asked if there was someone who would fill in regarding the engineering aspect of this while HB was away. HB said "I think TF can do it." JO though it would be best to have an industrial hygienist do it. HB answered "I have faith in TF doing it."
DR said that the plan had been for there to be 3 inspections by Environ while HB was out, and that other people from HB's firm to do the rest of the inspections. A question was raised about the credentials of whoever was to fill in. HB said that the person filling in had extensive experience and had worked with HB for 12 years.
DR asked what the problem had been in regard to observing the testing. HB said that he had simply not been there at the times the testing was being done. TF said that he had some information about the timing of the testing, and HB asked TF to call him with the information.
PE asked HB about re-testing, under HB supervision, some of the units that had already been tested. HB noted that he had gone with the [workers] to see where they had tested. PE said "Howard, when it comes to the BOEÖthere is no trustÖwhen it comes to the SCA, there is no basis for trust." RK said that she thought that some random testing would be good. HB said that he would ask about doing that. TF said that they were still cleaning the ceiling unit ventilators and maybe some on the 2nd floor. Someone noted that David Newman was away. DR said that he had tried but had been unable to reach DN on his cell phone. HB said that DN had been with him on a visit and had been "comfortable" with the process. PE said that he had spoken to DN at some point in regard to the issues he had raised..
DR itemized the issues:
HB to witness the testing.
Re-test under HB observation some of the unit ventilators that have already been tested. TF will talk to SCA about this. HB suggested re-testing 1 per floor.
Get a printed protocol of procedures.
Confirm that they are doing split testing.
Re split testing: HB noted that they were using EMS as their second lab. PE suggested that the parents choose one of the labs. DB recommended that we "let BOE do their thing," and that we send a 3rd sample to a lab we choose and pay for it out of PA funds. HB said that they will have to ask about this, and TF will ask them. JN asked HB if he could defend this suggestion. HB said "I don't feel that it's necessary technically, but, if people will feel better," he would go ahead. TF said "let's ask." ME said that, if they object, we should know that immediately. PE said that "we're not suggesting this for a technical reason but because of the trust issue." TF will contact the BOE about this and let DR know. DR agreed to email PE about BOE answer.
Questions raised at previous meeting:
Auditorium carpets and seats
DR said that in previous meeting, testing carpets had been agreed on but testing the seats was problematic. He noted that DN had said that, if carpet were tested, it would be a good proxy for the seats. DR noted that if BOE did not want to test, we would. BOE is planning to replace the auditorium carpet. They have agreed to clean the carpets in the library and then to do wipe samples.
There was a discussion of what testing to do. HB said "at minimum, ASTM." TF said "they wonít do it." JO said that [referring to ATC] "their test is bogus." TF said that BOE had said that, "if parents want to test, go ahead." HB noted that BOE claimed that they were replacing the carpet for aesthetic reasons. PN said that he had been in the school after Sept. 11 and that the auditorium was heavily trafficked, that there were dogs, "what I saw was unhealthy." HB noted that they had done ultrasonication and said "it was never established that it was contaminated." He re-stated that ASTM was the method to use.
LF asked how the taking out of the carpets was going to be overseen. HB said that we do not have a protocol for this. TF said that we have on the list of questions for BOE how the carpets will be taken out.
The issue of whether the seat upholstery would be replaced was raised. PN voiced opinion that it should be. JM asked why the carpets and not the seats. HB said that they took on the carpet because it was going to be done anyway. DR said that he had had a long conversation with DN and HB about the approach for testing the carpets in the auditorium and library. If the results of the testing of the carpets shows contamination, then we will have to do further testing. If auditorium carpet is contaminated, then we must test seat cushions aggressively or replace them. If carpet tests are negative for contamination, then we do not have to proceed further with the seats.
HB said that the testing was not done yet but had started. DR noted that the BOE did not want to pay for it, so we would. RK asked: 1. if we should test seats on our own 2. why we were testing only for asbestos. HB said that the test was specific for asbestos and that it was unclear if there was a test for lead in carpets. DR said that HB and TF would meet and discuss this question after the meeting. RK asked if we should test the seats now or wait. PE noted that the auditorium, balcony, library should be included.
KD raised the question of the HVAC filters. TF said that they were going to replace the current filters--which included carbon and were more for gases/VOCswith 2î pleated filters which were more fore particulate matter.
KD also asked how the demolition of the Deutsche Bank building (which is contaminated with mold) affect us, will the barges be brought back, can we mobilize about this? JO noted that Fiderman Hall at BMCC was also to be taken down and was contaminated with dioxin.
The question of what protective equipment workers at our site was also raised. Someone remarked that the BOE position was that the contractors were responsible for compliance with OSHA regulations. There was some discussion about PA involvement with this. Although some parents felt we should take a position ( e.g. JJ said that it was a good example for our children to show concern for the workers), other parents did not think we should take this on in addition to our current concerns. DR asked if anyone on the committee wanted to move to recommend to the Executive Board that we make the workers an issue at present, and no motion was offered. Although some present
KD asked about recontamination from shoes, etc.. HB said that, at the very end, there would be a final cleaning ìlike painting yourself into a corner out of a room.
The website was discussed. At first, TF said that he would get updated tables and provide a revised version tomorrow (Friday). The issue of getting tables onto the website was then raised, and JM said that she would troubleshoot this on Monday. TF said that was good because he would have more time to go over the data. DR said that minutes of the prior committee meeting would also be posted. Protocols on the website are the ones we were given previously; they will be updated when they become available.
DR reported that the BOE and SCA have requested tat we give them a sign-off on the cleanup, floor by floor. HB said that he does not think that the PA is responsible for this, that the SCA, Taylor, and other contractors are there fulltime, and it is their responsibility. DR said that he and TF had also discussed and "feel strongly that, beyond the fact that we cannot testify to witnessing everything, it is the BOE's responsibility, and we should not put our name on anything." If "they want something from us," DR said that he thinks that we should not answer with an affirmative, i.e. not give approval. At most, DR recommends that we could say that we have looked at the cleanup and have not been able to find any problems.
KD wondered if we could use their request for a sign-off as leverage to get them to do certain testing, e.g. seats.. This led to some further discussion of the auditorium testing.
In re signoff issue, JM asked "how will we say for ourselves that it's done?" PE said that he did not think we should sign anything and raised issue of liability. DB noted that it was not so much an issue of a lawsuit, but that there was a level of mutual distrust; the BOE does not trust that the PA either. The BOE is concerned that the PA will keep changing their demands and never be satisfied.
KD asked if the construction people give regular progress reports. HB said that it's on the job and available and that they have been "totally cooperative." Someone again raised the 2-hour notice issue. HB said that he had shown up unexpectedly and gotten into the building. TF stated that their rationale for the 2-hour provision was that it would give time for a senior person to get to the site, PE said that he had talked to DN who had said that things could be hidden in that time period. He recommended that HB occasionally show up without the 2-hour notification. TF and HB said that the BOE were "pretty adamant" about this.
DR said that he would talk to Richard Benveniste about the signoff issue. DB said that she had passed on to Benveniste the question about the HEPA filtration. DB said that when Benveniste went to David Klasfeld about the HEPA, it was on the basis of having been told that FEMA money was available. Lisette Norton (of Nadler's office) was the only one who heard that FEMA money available. JM said that she had spoken with Lisette Norton and been told that there had been a misunderstanding and that, in fact, we would have to apply for funding. DB said that Benveniste had discussed this with FEMA, and, in his professional opinion, funding for HEPA would not be approved.
RK asked about the barges. LP said that Sheldon Silver had $8 million. JJ said that this committee sets policy and tone. DB said that we needed to know what the size, scope, disruption to school, timing, etc. was to do it [HEPA filtration]. DR noted that we had no minutes from last year's Health and Safety Committee and thus had no access to the information they may have gathered about this. KD said that Jean Claude Kaufmann had provided some plan. A plan from Cosentini was also mentioned. JO mentioned that Stanley Teitel has $20,000 to use for environmental issues. Another brief discussion about the filters ensued. FP said that the question of what kind of ongoing testing should be instituted would need to be discussed at a future meeting.
The meeting was adjourned.
Next meeting will be Wednesday, August 14, 2002 at 7:00 in same place (Park West High School.)
Submitted by Felice Perlman
